Monday, February 26, 2007

I am not amused....

Some news came out about Warhammer that I needed to munch on before commenting on it... specifically the T for Teen rating and the absence of a death penalty. Quite simply, I'm not sir, I am not. This puts this title down in my list because it just became more like WoW with those two elements. I defended this game when it came to those game "journalists" who repeatedly asked "...why does your game look like WoW? Oh...look at the little kitty...yayyyyyy, a kittie". OK, they didn't say anything about kitties, but you get the idea. To me, the game play was leaning towards DAoC in terms of RvR and it looked like it had a grittier and more mature look to it. So, I didn't give a rat's ass if WoW took their orcs from Warhammer...differing gameplay was the key and these yokels were missing the point. Sigh...with these two announcements, I am not looking forward to this game as much as I did, because the game is now slowly morphing into WoWHammer.

There is something else that's been grating on my nerves about's the coverage of the game from Mythic itslef. I'm not going to point anything out specifically, but they seem to be tooting the PR horn a bit too hard IMHO. Instead of a game company proudly plugging their next game, the intensity and vigor they are using is making them sound more like a cross between a gameshow host and a car salesman...both of which turn me off.

I also fear that the success that LoTR deserves is now in jeopardy with this as well. Before, I always assumed that Warhammer (with an M rating) was going to be for the non-WoW crowd and that LoTR (with a T rating) would be another option for the burned out WoW player. Now, we have both Warhammer and LoTR as options for the ex-WoW player to go to, which, in theory will split the numbers somewhat. Since we all know that most WoW players can't read (/ know who you are), we all know where they'll go.

About the no-death penalty...again, something WoW players love and will attract them to this title. This is a smart business move on the part of Mythic, but its a slap in the face to Warhammer fans who want something a bit more meaningful from this IP.

So there you have it. Warhammer is now on my semi-stink list for the time being until more news comes to light. LoTR is still the one to watch I think, but given this new competition from Warhammer to take WoW players...this may be a prediction I'll have to re-evaluate.

D out.


MrrX said...

Hummm. Absolutely NO penalty. Zip, zilch, nada. I'm not sure that's appropriate, and I'm very much against harsh death penalties.

I guess it would depend on how bad this "time" penalty is - does it take forever to run back to where you were or not.

I doubt I'm going to play this one myself - too many other games I have some interest in already.

Flying Norseman said...

I played DAOC for over 3 years and was looking forward to what Mythic was attempting with Warhammer. This announcement isn't a death knell, but it is a bit disappointing.

Gonna try out LOTRO after all even though I have HUGE reservations from playing the beta.

Douglas said...

If I read correctly, Mythis said that the only penalty for death was *time*, so no xp loss, or loot loss, or death debuff... but in all honesty don't all of these things really translate on a fundamental level to time? Loot and XP loss are penalties 'cause you have to re-invest the time to make up for their loss.

I guess the real question is "How much time?".

darrenl said...

I think what they mean by "time" is the how long it takes you to walk to your corpse or they may implement a timer, i.e. you've got to wait 2 minutes to respawn.

But you're right Doug, it all comes down to time. Mind you, some loot and xp represent more time than others.

Stormgaard said...

Dude. It's PvP! How much ass would it suck if there was a Death Penalty in any other successful PvP game? Like when you come back your gun sucks or your armor doesn't work.

Good design idea IMO.

darrenl said...

Actually, I think it would suck ass even more if we didn't think outside of the box every once and a while.

I refuse to believe a hard limiter like "PvP cannot have death penalty".

Stormgaard said...

Yeah, see what I'm not sure if you guys understand that WAR isn't (really) going to be a traditional MMORPG. It's going to be a PvP game. It's the opposite of every other MMORPG to date terms of this.

Stop thinking "WoW, EQ, AC, SWG, Vanguard, DAoC, LotRO" etc (where only limited PvP exists". Start thinking "Halo, Tribes, Warcraft" etc. It's almost totally inappropriate IMO that we're even talking about WAR in the context of the MMORPG industry. It's going to be saturated in PvP from the lowest levels to the highest.

There isn't a single example of a successful PvP game anywhere (ever) that has a "Death Penalty". It would be a game killer. Speaking of "Killers" refer to Bartle to get what I'm talking about.

Killers aren't motivated by the same things Achievers are. Death penalties are - by definition - hurdles designed specifically for Achivers to overcome.

The only hurdles that exist for a Killer is the next player he has to kill. Anything stopping or slowing him from reaching that hurdle is going to ruin the experience and make him look for another game.

darrenl said...

You still haven't convinced me...and I don't think WAR is just PvP. From the game's wesite:

"Next generation Realm vs. Realm game system integrating both PvP combat and PvE quests on the
same map in support of the greater war." it not just about killers my good man.

Secondly, just because no PvP game has ever instituted a death penalty doesn't mean that they shouldn't or at least look at solutions that could work within the WH context.

Achievers, Killers, Pancake flippers...I really don't care. This game is RvR, PvP and PvE and the lines between, as far as I know, are blurred. So, what you have here now is a "traditional" PvP penalty, i.e. time, being applied to the RvR and PvE aspects of the game. That just doesn't make any sense to me. What you've done is take that "hurdle" away from the other aspects of the game in order to accommodate the PvP aspect. Not good.

If WAR truly isn't traditional, then why stick to a traditional PvP implementation of death penalty when it clearly is a hybrid of PvE, RvR and PvP. This is my only concern...beyond that, the game looks good.

Stormgaard said...

Here. Take a look at this video. After watching it I'm not so convinced that the lines are blurred. They seem to have PvP solidly at the core of their vision for the game. PvE seems to be almost exclusively an afterthought - as PvP is in every other MMORPG.

Right Click to Save As:

Stormgaard said...


Right Click to Save As

darrenl said...

I can't get the video for some reason...regardless, I can't really extrapolate total game play of an MMO based on one video snippet.

According to their site, in the Game Overview section, this game will have an integration of RvR and PvE I can only take what they say at face value since I have not played the game. They are certainly not advertising this game as a pure PvP game.

We're getting a bit off topic of my main post. My main concern...disagree if you that they implemented these changes, not for the sake of WAR gameplay, but to specifically target the WoW subscriber base. In doing so, it is my opinion (disagree if you want) that they have watered down the title...and I'm not the first to think this...

darrenl said...

Was able to download the video...already saw it. Good information though.

Stormgaard said...

PvE in WAR seems - at best - a way to learn how to play the game before you "Really play the game" given the way the PvP zones increase as you go higher in level and the PvE's disappear.

But maybe that's even too wimpy an approach. It's always been my personal theory that MMORPG's should just go whole hogg with good-old-fashioned skill based PvP.

I mean seriously - my dream would MMORPG would be World of Starcraft where the PvP battlegrounds were either (or both) an hardcore FPS (ala BF1942) and RTS (ala Starcraft)